Posts by Sea Breeze

35

According to Jehovah's Witnesses, who will be saved?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i know who won't be saved according to witnesses and that includes just about everyone alive at armageddon who is not a jehovah’s witness.

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others who are permanently lost include adam and eve, those who died in the flood, people of sodom and gomorrah and apostates to their one true religion..

Sea Breeze

There are places on the Earth where the neither the Bible or Christianity has ever been heard of.

More good thoughts TBK.

But that doesn't have anything to do with your personal judgement does it? If God has made the basis of righteousness (being morally debt-free) - belief; then I'm sure that he will judge accordingly whether or not anyone has "believed" to the best of their ability. I believe he is a righteous judge, and will do what is right. That is his nature. But, he is that standard, not me.

I think of the thief on the cross. At first both criminals were railing against Jesus. But, for one of them, after he hung there for a while and thought about it, decided that he wanted to be saved. I don't believe that he knew hardly anything of a theological nature. Yet, Jesus honored his choice. Why would not God honor the same from a native american who cried out to "The Great Spirit"? I believe he is a righteous judge, and will do what is right. That is his nature. And what is "right" seems to be some mixture of law and grace. The cross is where Law meets Grace. But, there is not a legal imperative to save any of us.

The heart of the Lord, is Love, ,adoption, relationship, inheritance etc. But, the problem is that most of us don't want to be saved. God is eventually bound to honor that choice as well, as much he would like not to. The price of Free Will, is very high. So, while judgement is not the heart of the Lord, it is part of his position. Reluctantly, he will discharge that duty. If he forever never did anything about it, that would make him an enabler of sin and its author by default. But, as it is in order to preserve free will, God has chosen to judge sin as opposed to making us all robots incapable of love.

The suffering we experience is made by us and therefor only we can save ourselves. There is also no need for anyone else to punish us. We punish ourselves.

Some truth here. The Law of attraction is real and similar to what you say. But, when we try to take this principle too far we run into ludicrous scenarios like; lets just get rid of the police, courts and judges because after all sinful people will attract a lot of negativity into their lives and thus punish themselves. Would you like to get rid of your local police?

The suffering we experience is made by us and therefor only we can save ourselves.

I believe that biblical dispensations or ages are designed to answer a specific existential question, to answer man's objection as to why he cannot or will not obey God.

People couldn't trust God because they didn't have enough information as to what he wanted. So, he gave us the Law. After 1500 years and man's failure to obey the Law, he gave us the age of Grace. Man now complains that he can't obey God under Grace because of the environment. Some people just live in the wrong place, have a bad government, family, spouse etc. So, the Millennium Age will finally address the final question of nature vs. nature. Even under perfect safety, and righteous government with no corrupt politicians, people will still seek freedom from God.... because the sin nature will still be there for those people. They are not glorified. I believe many will have a new spirit, like Christians today. But their children may not even have that. At the end of that period the wicked will be like the sands of the sea shore.

The Law, while good in and of itself is also a curse. Because we cannot keep it. Jesus became a curse for us.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Sea Breeze

There just seems to be something a little extra perverse and extra fallen in the mindset of active JW's. I had it too, I remember.

But, the further I get away from it, the clearer I see my past mindset. It's like a guy who insists on crashing a party where everyone was already invited. He just couldn't couldn't go in through the door. Or, like a kid who will lie when the truth sounds better. Looking back, it was just such a contrarian way to live.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Sea Breeze

GB believes that if he can't be declared righteous the way God says to do it, then he can a least be God's friend. How? By dis-believing and dis-obeying God. It's crazy, But this is exactly what he was taught.

God says to eat and drink of the new covenant "for the forgiveness of sins". The WT says not to. Whom to believe? We have a choice - free will.

This is a link to the official WT teaching on how you can be declared righteous by disobeying Jesus.... with some of my own notes of course.

https://www.bibleready.org/_files/ugd/7f3e67_280498c8ef394dc796a2fd2e45636c76.pdf

Fortunately, Jesus cleared this matter up on whether or not we need to be born-again with a new spirit or not. This way we don't get confused and misdirected:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:9 KJV)

If you are not spirit-begotten you are not friends with Jesus. You are rejected.

35

According to Jehovah's Witnesses, who will be saved?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i know who won't be saved according to witnesses and that includes just about everyone alive at armageddon who is not a jehovah’s witness.

.

others who are permanently lost include adam and eve, those who died in the flood, people of sodom and gomorrah and apostates to their one true religion..

Sea Breeze

TBK,

Good questions. First some concept clearing.

1. We are a Tri-Partite being. As such, we will be conscious forever. The question is where? Is it total abandonment in "outer darkness" is it literal hell fire? I recommend side-stepping the details of that question. One is horrible, the other is worse. Life without God is going to be existence without experiencing anything that could be considered good. There is no other possibility. No sunshine, no waterfalls, no baskets of puppies, no fulfilling relationships, no love. God is the author of good. If we reject God (the real one as opposed to the one we sometimes imagine) we are rejecting ALL that is good.

So, we don't have a choice about whether or not we will forever be conscious (google terminal lucidity and out of body near death experiences for plenty of circumstantial evidence that our consciousness is separate from our body). This should impress upon us the seriousness of the topic.

But Jesus made it clear that we do have a choice about where we will spend eternity. It is a not a location, it is a Person. If it is with God, it will be all good all the time, forever, in heaven, on earth and probably everywhere in between.

2. The second concept to get is that unlike what the WT teaches, where they imagine that people sin because they are weak, or because they don't go to enough meetings, or field service etc.; people sin because they have a sin nature. It is our nature to sin, so we do. We do not naturally want God as our father. We want the object of our devotion to be an idol, religion or an organization. We want one that is performance based so we can a least take a little bit of credit for our good fortunes.

3. God wants a real relationship with us, not based on performance. I married my wife and at times her performance is just not there. Same goes for my performance. We love each other because we are one flesh. I love my sons, not based on their performance, but based on the fact that they are my own flesh. We are family. Love is natural, because it is the nature of family. But, we are not born as part of God's family.

So, if God is after our hearts, our love, and is seeking to make us part of his family that surpasses performance, then how do we deal with such a God? How exactly do people such as ourselves have a relationship with the possessor of infinite wisdom, knowledge & power? In our broken flesh we are scared of him, we hide from him, we try to work for him to appease him, & we ignore him. Notice that all of these reactions are not ones we would see in a healthy marriage or in healthy family relationships. This kind of response is maladaptive, resulting from a perverse and foreign sin nature.

So, it is really our sin nature that is so offensive to God. This is what he wants to destroy, not us....because it is what separates us from him and makes it impossible for us to have a normal relationship. The way we are now, is not satisfying to either one of us.

Enter: Free Will.

Did I choose my wife? Or, did she choose me? The answer is Yes. If it was one sided, then love would be impossible. Love MUST be given by CHOICE. Love is the one thing God cannot create (outside of his own triune nature) BY HIMSELF. Love is by nature a collaborative affair. So what is the basis for a relationship with God. If its not performance, begging, manipulating, bargaining or appeasement, what is it?

The basis is the same as any relationship - BELIEF. I believed my girlfriend and so I enter into a marriage contract with her. 18 years later, I still believe in her and she in me. Good times or bad, we are still going to discharge our duties, and we believe that.

When Jesus was asked what must they do to be saved, the first word out of his mouth was "believe". Like in my marriage, I cannot always perform, but I can always believe.

I can argue with God, reason with him, try to manipulate him and try to appease him... all totally unnecessary and offensive. But, what he wants is for us to believe him. Belief precedes sin (and goodness for that matter). When Eve sinned, she first chose not to believe what God had said. Only then did she act externally in a manner consistent with what had already happened internally.

Because of what Jesus did, he restored the ability to choose. In a sense, we are all now jettisoned back to the same moral position that Eve was in. She didn't have a sin nature and thus was free to choose. So, while we cannot choose to be free of the sin nature, we can choose to believe God. If we do, God says that's good enough for him and he immediately destroys the sin nature in our spirit and gives us a new one. It is a down payment that we can experience in the here and now on the full payment when he destroys our sin nature in our flesh and soul when we are resurrected or raptured, if we live till then.

The question is not why should we choose God. The real question that many deceptions seek to hide is, why would anyone seek to live eternally in the absence of anything that could be considered good? The gates of hell are all locked from the inside.

God... endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath...He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, ...not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles. (Romans 9) That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. - Ephesians 2:7

God has made it clear, that he fully intends to honor our choice on whether or not to believe him. Those that do, he will parade as his Trophy... believers are trophies of Grace... just as I consider my sweetie a trophy wife.

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,

And her beloved, who was not beloved.”

“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,

‘You are not My people,’

There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

31

WHEN is the Kingdom of God coming?

by Fisherman in

when is the kingdom of god coming?.

on being asked by the pharisees when the kingdom of god was coming, he answered them: “the kingdom of god is not coming with paratherisis; 21 nor will people say, ‘see here!’ or, ‘there!’ for look!

the kingdom of god is in your midst.” —lu 17:20,21. .

Sea Breeze

It wouldn’t be fair if all of a sudden at anytime in human history without any hint or signs, Jesus shows up to judge and execute everybody.

Why are JW's are always telling God what is and isn't fair? Fair would be if God struck us all dead for our sins. Your next breath is a kindness from the Lord.

And thankfully, that isn't what happens. The Anti-Christ does all the killing. Jesus shows up as

Savior to end the rule of the Anti-Christ and keep people from totally annihilating each other. "Unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved".

This is the GT period. Christians will have been long-gone by then, raptured to heaven in the twinkling of an eye.

35

According to Jehovah's Witnesses, who will be saved?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i know who won't be saved according to witnesses and that includes just about everyone alive at armageddon who is not a jehovah’s witness.

.

others who are permanently lost include adam and eve, those who died in the flood, people of sodom and gomorrah and apostates to their one true religion..

Sea Breeze

What are people being saved from?

I was in field service once with the Presiding Overseer and when he got back to the car, he was boasting that when a HH asked him if he was saved, he snapped back, "saved from what". He said the man just stared at him. Everyone in the car had a big laugh.

I don't recall Hebrews 9: 27 ever being quoted at a KH or publication.....ever.

"it is appointed unto man once to die and then judgement". We are saved from judgement. Jesus was judged in our place.

Just as the ancient priests put the sins of the people onto a goat, and then sent him into the wilderness to face certain death, God puts our personal sins onto the Lamb of God "for us".

Jesus is our scapegoat, if we accept the offer. This is why people at the doors were always asking us if Jesus was our personal savior. It was because they knew from attending any decent church that there will be a personal judgement, after we die.

As JW's, we were never taught this. In JW theology, you self-atone just by dying .... regardless of whether or not you want it.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Sea Breeze

Don't you think it was in the interest of Rome and the Pharisees to find that body no matter what? I mean Jesus said he would resurrect himself? Why was no body ever found?

Christians starting preaching Jesus' resurrection almost immediately, right in the heart of Judaism in Jerusalem. If it was a hoax there would have been those in position to prove it.

The Jewish religion has been around for thousands of years. They are extremely resistant to change.... especially stuff like the Sabbath. What could cause thousands of Orthodox Jews to suddenly stop making Saturday their holy day and change it to Sunday?

What could cause hundreds of people to claim that they saw and spoke to the risen Jesus. If they were lying, why would they die for something they KNEW to be a lie?

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Sea Breeze

It's not really difficult to understand GabeAthouse. Didn't you hear? A man walked out of a tomb after being publicly crucified.

The whole world counts time by this mans birth. A majority of scholars, skeptic, atheist and otherwise agree on these 12 points regarding this event. All you have to do is come up with some plausible explanations for these points and then we can all forget about the whole thing. If you can't come up with plausible explanations, then it is easy to understand why some people would listen to a man who came back from the dead.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Sea Breeze

GB, I'm still trying to figure out how JW's hope to get their sins forgiven without Jesus as their Mediator. I have asked you several times, but you keep dodging the question.

The entire world knows that JW's are not allowed to accept Jesus as their Mediator.

Scripture says that Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant (Hebrews 9: 15) Matt. 16: 27-28 explicitly states that the new covenant is for the forgiveness of sins.

So, it looks like JW's are trained to lie about this most important offer from Jesus. Then, once people are baptized, they are disfellowshipped if they balk about this and they lose their family members forever. Most, just realize that they got scammed and keep quite about it. Others commit suicide. Still others try to lead a double life.

What is it that keeps JW's such as yourself from sharing the basis for their faith? I have asked you several times. If it is not the new covenant, and if it is not Jesus being their Mediator, then what is it?

The February 15, 1991 issue of the Watchtower, pgs. 15-20 paragraph 11; makes this announcement:

11 Christ does not act as Mediator of the new covenant toward them (the great crowd)

Yet, when asked publicly, JW's claim just the opposite of what they believe privately as shown below. Why would otherwise nice people so blatantly lie like this right to peoples faces? Especially since, like yourself they wont tell you how they do get their sins forgiven. It makes no sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqwH_USEzpU&t=376s&ab_channel=BibleReady

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Sea Breeze

God Believer,

But those scriptures aren't talking about you are they? They are talking about those that like Abraham, believe God. Believing God is what makes us righteous. That is what those scriptures you posted show isn't it?

Do you believe God when he commands us to enter into an agreement with him "for the forgiveness of sins" at Mt. 26: 27-28 ? Or, do you disbelieve God and believe that you can be declared righteous some other way?

What say you?